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| Andrews |
As a beginning, I'm going to ask each of you to tell me briefly about your growing up years. Your family, community, school? How you developed your ideas about your role as a woman at home and in society? And which one of you would like to start?
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| Sale |
Jean Marie. You might as well just start off with a big one there.
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| Andrews |
Jean Marie is going first.
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| Brough |
I grew up with four brothers. I'm in the middle. My father was a veterinarian histopathologist, and my mother a lab technician. So most of my life , there was always something we went over at a laboratory, someplace. That was my education at the dinner table, so to speak, had to do with science. I was born in Washington, DC. And when I was nine years old, we moved to Alabama. Mostly because my father took a position at a university there, a teaching position, because my oldest brother was ready for college. And with five kids, there was no way they could afford college, unless we lived close by. So we moved to Alabama, and I spent my formative years there.
And I graduated from college in Alabama. Stayed to get my master's degree because I had met a man and he was still in school. So we courted, and I worked in a teaching school nearby in Columbus, Georgia. Got married in 1965, moved to Texas where he was working. And two months after moving to Texas, we moved to Seattle. Been married to the same guy since 1965, so almost forty-two years. We have one child. And I'm trying to think of what were formative influences in my life: expectations that I would do well scholastically, because that was just part of our family upbringing. No politics at all, except for my grandmother—after her husband died, she became a tax assessor. And she ran on the Democrat and Republican and Socialist Party ticket, and was elected.
And she managed to hold that position long enough to afford college, 'til my mother finished college, because my mother was in college at the time. This was in Swarthmore, Pennsylvania. That's the only politician that we ever had in the family, that I know, or that anybody will fess up to. I think that my mother sort of came along with me into the woman's movement over some time. Because I do remember this marvelous thing when we were back in Washington, DC, lobbying in congress on the Equal Rights Amendment, that she came to pick us up to take us out to lunch, because they were living nearby at that time. And I can still remembering her going toe to toe with Phyllis Schlafly out in the hallway. [all laugh] But Mother worked and raised children, so she knew the realities of woman's existence in American society.
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| Andrews |
What's your mother's name, for the record?
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| Brough |
Clara. Clara Seibold. So that's about it. The only other influence I had is that I got involved in a sorority in college. Because I had four brothers, this was my first interaction with a group of females. And I loved every minute of it.
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| Andrews |
Okay. Same question, Dorothy.
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| Sale |
I was born in New York City. The first place we lived, which I don't remember, was in Queens, just outside Manhattan. But I was actually born in Manhattan. Then when I was four-and-a-half, we moved to Manhasset, which was a town, an old town, on the north shore of Long Island. That's where I grew up, went through school, all the way through high school and so on.
I had one younger brother. My father was a salesman. I should say I was born in 1932. I'm ten years older than Jean Marie. [laughs]
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| Brough |
I didn't say, if you'll notice.
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| Sale |
Which has made no difference in our relationship at all, as far as I know. We were new feminists at the same time together, and clicked right away.
My mother started teaching while I was in grade school. I think it's when my brother, who's five-and-a-half years younger than I, started going to school regular time. She had almost gotten a PhD in English lit at Columbia before they married. And she went back and got a master's, using that. And this was early in World War Two, and the men, the male teachers were all being drafted and so on. So there were opportunities for women that wouldn't have been there otherwise, I think. She ended up, after a couple of earlier things, teaching young women in Hunter College High School, which is associated with Hunter College in New York. And that's what I remember.
But Roger and I, I was behind him a year in school. He was in graduate school getting a PhD. I was an English major but fell in love with art history, and did a lot of both at Swarthmore. Then went to graduate school as a librarian, and got a job at the Cornell University Library, which is where he was studying, and where he grew up, actually. His father was a professor of English at Cornell, and he grew up in Ithaca, New York. And we got married and went to Ithaca, New York, where I was working in the Cornell University Library. And instantly got pregnant. My son was born at nine-and-a-half months later. [laughs] And I stopped working, because that was what you did in those days.
Two years later, Roger got a job at Amherst College when he'd finished his PhD, and we moved to Amherst, where my daughter was born. And in 1962, we left Amherst and came to the University of Washington, and have been here ever since. The year after we came here, we found a house in the Central Area, and we've been living in it for forty-four years now, very happily. So that's where I was living when all of this happened. At what point do we shift? Is that enough of the personal?
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| Andrews |
Yes. And thank you both for that. So what were your major affiliations and networks in the 1960s and '70s, particularly relating to women or relating to your activism? And what roles did you play in them?
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| Brough |
1960s, I was still in college, at the beginning of the decade. My sorority was important to me.
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| Andrews |
What sorority?
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| Brough |
Kappa Alpha Theta. And then graduated from college in '63, got my master's in '65. Got married in '65. And then we moved out here. So I don't think I belonged to anything. I was continuing graduate studies because I was a public school teacher, and wanted to get up on the highest in the pay scale. I did not join any organization until after 1969. I can still remember having my daughter in 1969, and after six months sitting in Joan Lefevre's kitchen, saying, "What do people do all day?" Because I was not working.
And she got me involved in the League of Women Voters. So that was my step out the door. I met a lot of interesting women, including Dorothy, through the League of Women Voters. And I think that the role that I had, I was president of my sorority, I know that. And the League of Women Voters, -- eventually, I was on the Status of Women Committee. And eventually got on the board of directors while I was still at home, as a mother. Because I was a math major, they put me on finance committees, things like that. So just the practical details of life. I've always been a practical detail sort of person.
The first big thing I ever did was Helen Sommers' fault. Because I was on the League finance committee, and the League Status of Women Committee. So she got me involved with the campaign committee to establish a state equal rights amendment, HJR-61, 1972. That was a political campaign, and Helen was the treasurer of that campaign in 1972. She bagged it to run for the legislature. [laughter] I can still remember the phone call when she called me up and said, "Jean Marie," she said, "I'm not going to be able to do this because I'm going to run for the legislature."
So I said, "Okay, I can do that." So for the next six months, I raised money for the state equal rights amendment campaign, and did all the treasurer work. This was fortunately before the PDC days.
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| Andrews |
Before the what days?
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| Brough |
The Public Disclosure Commission days. That came shortly thereafter. That's always been a burr under my skin.
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| Sale |
That was a League issue. [laughs]
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| Brough |
But when that campaign was over, I sort of went back into the kitchen for a month or two, because really, I put out a lot of energy in that campaign. I don't think I got involved with NOW until '74. So it was a year later.
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| Sale |
I was president, so it was '74.
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| Brough |
The group of us who had been the League Status of Women Committee, there were basically five of us that were functioning, continuous members, started lobbying the state legislature in Olympia to get a federal Equal Rights Amendment ratified. So we did that in 1973. And we did that maybe twice a week for the entire legislative session. Some group of us was in Olympia doing this thing. I had a good friend who provided me childcare, and I think I was the only one that really needed childcare at the time.
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| Sale |
Well, Jackie had Matt. I don't remember, if I did, too.
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| Brough |
So then I joined NOW in 1974, because they needed somebody who had some legislative experience, because they needed a legislative liaison person. So maybe Dorothy probably talked me into doing that. And then we became co-presidents of NOW in '75. Then I went on the by-laws commission to reorganize national NOW in 1976. In '77, while this was going on, I was on the national board of directors for NOW. Meanwhile, we moved to Federal Way, and my kid started school, so I had more time to spend on women's things.
And that was about it. There was a lot of activity here in the state of Washington in the late '70s, but I was sort of focused in DC, lobbying Congress first for an extension for the ratification of the ERA bill, or for the Equal Rights Amendment itself. So a lot of traveling back and forth and business in DC. So that took me through the '70s. Do you want to do the '80s, or is the '70s– ? [laughter]
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| Andrews |
No. No. Right now we're just doing the build up to Ellensburg.
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| Brough |
But this was it. International Women's Year was not necessarily anything that I had much responsibility for, except the politics that all of a sudden was dumped in our laps, where you had to pull the divergent feminists together.
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| Andrews |
We'll talk about the conference in just a minute. I'd like to give Dorothy a chance to weigh in. And then I'd like to go back and talk a little bit about the accomplishments in the early '70s. Dorothy, just to remind you of the question, what were your major affiliations and networks in the '60s and '70s, and what roles did you play?
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| Sale |
Can I go back a minute? Because, from your first question, I realize I forgot something, which has been very important. And that is, I always had a church life. My parents were active. We were in, actually, a Dutch reform church with a remarkable man who was born in Russia and was a chemist, and then became a minister. I loved him. I taught Sunday school. I had a church background, and I got a very strong sense of what was fair and what wasn't, a lot of it right straight out of the Bible. And I just want that to be in the background, because when all of this that we're talking about started, I was a member of a mostly black Presbyterian church in the Central area, in Madrona, which is our neighborhood, and had been very active in the Civil Rights Movement in the earlier '60s. And that was some of the segues into this current question, which is the major affiliations.
Well, I started at the League of Women Voters fifty years ago this year.
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| Brough |
Fifty years?
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| Sale |
Fifty years ago. 1957, in Amherst, Massachusetts.
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| Brough |
You are old, aren't you? [laughs]
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| Sale |
I am, dear. How old is old? Ten years older than I am. Yes. [laughs] I've always been old for you, dear.
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| Andrews |
So this is the fifty year anniversary celebration of your LWV membership --
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| Sale |
And Roger and I are going to be seventy-five this year. I remember when my mother was seventy-five, it was a big deal. My mother was always a huge influence on me, and I loved her dearly. She was wonderful when I discovered feminism. She was right there reading the things and talking with me about them. And we went right on like that forever. Yeah. My father was also supportive, but not in the same way. He's not as much of an intellectual. And my mother was pretty intellectual.
So, in Amherst, Massachusetts in the late '50s, there was Amherst College, which did not have women. There was the University of Massachusetts, which was just beginning. And the town was pretty eighteenth century and closed. And if you had any broader interest in anything, the only game in town was the League of Women Voters which, for the size of the town, was large. It produced a national League president, who was president of the Amherst League, when I joined. And I began learning about government in a different way from the kinds of things I'd learned in high school, and got very interested in it all, and in the process. And Massachusetts towns are run by town councils, and everybody's involved. It's very down to earth.
So when we moved to Seattle, I had my membership changed, so they knew I was coming. I don't know why I thought that would help, but it did, in a way. And that was in '62. Our kids went to the public schools. They were, at that point, seven and four. .
I became immediately involved in what was the growing civil rights movement in the town. Down at a beach on Lake Washington I met women from the neighborhood who were active in starting a preschool. And they were going to start the preschool in a Presbyterian church's basement. And so I went to the Presbyterian church, because I met the minister down at the beach on the lake and heard all this talk, and started going to that church. But also got involved with all the neighborhood things that were going on.
The PTA was very active. We used to, we were black and white together. It was enormously educating for me. [laughs] For both of us, Roger and I were both active. And we were a very active PTA. We used to march down to the school board regularly, demanding various kinds of things that we felt were not adequately being provided. So that led me into learning a lot about how political things operated in the city of Seattle, you know? And so when, when–
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| Brough |
You never got called on the carpet for calling the school board sexist, like I did.
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| Sale |
[laughs] Well, I don't know why not. I probably did, too.
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| Andrews |
Do you want to say more about that?
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| Sale |
I'm sure the school board members were. Everybody was in those days. . When were you, what were you doing? Do you remember?
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| Brough |
I was lobbying, they knew I was a League person, because I'd been down there for League stuff before. But I was lobbying for the alternative elementary school number two.
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| Sale |
Oh, okay.
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| Brough |
That Stephanie started. And they were giving us a whole lot of static about doing an alternative publicschool.
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| Sale |
So that was before feminism. It was just at the beginning?
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| Brough |
It was, you know, we moved here to Federal Way in '76. So this would have been in '74 or so. The League was where most of us met.
At one point, I remember Nancy Rust of the legislature doing some kind of, you know, resolution or something, talking about how many of the women who were in the legislature at the time had basically cut their political teeth, so to speak, on the issues in the League of Women Voters. That really was about the only show in town.
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| Sale |
Well, I chaired a big committee. We had an equal rights study, and it was divided in three subjects. And I co-chaired the education study, which had to do with the schools. It took a year to get a big reply out. And then I think nothing particularly was happening. And I got interested in women's issues by reading Simone de Beauvoir, and come on, who's our great–
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| Andrews |
Betty Friedan?
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| Sale |
Betty Friedan, yes. And then when the state League chose a status of women study in 1971, I think it was, I went and joined that committee, which was large. And full of people like Jane Noland and you and Jackie and, oh, all kinds of people. I suppose I could get a list. And we discovered things that shocked us like property rights, and that name changes, and whether you could do it or not. It was all very basic issues. It didn't have anything to do with all the humongous subjects. It was all these little things that had to do with daily life which just shocked you. You couldn't do things without your husband's signature and so on and so forth.
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| Andrews |
I have a copy of that report for the archives.
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| Sale |
Do you? Did I give it to you?
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| Andrews |
No. Helen Sommers did.
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| Sale |
Oh, okay. I found an extra one, too. Yeah, and, well, Helen was doing NOW at that time. But also I think national NOW had a board meeting in Seattle, and I saw them in the paper. And that interested me, because I had been reading about Red Stockings, I think, that group in New York, and other things on the East Coast. And when something seemed to be coming here, I was trying to find some group that I could talk to. I think I was curious about what was going on. So I did not go to, well, they were in the paper. I don't know whether there was anything public that they could do. That must have been 1970, '69 or '70. '70, I think. Do you remember?
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| Andrews |
I know that Seattle Now organized in 1970.
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| Sale |
Out here, they organized before 1970, I think. But nationally, it's '65, isn't it?
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| Andrews |
Here, it was 1970.
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| Brough |
Linda Miller was part of that group.
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| Sale |
Yes, Linda was. We really met in that League group. And then that took us, Jackie and I went to a NOW meeting in November, '72. I was so impressed by what was going on. I was very impressed with you because Helen had gotten you. Why you, I don't know. [laughs] But I was envious. And I learned a lot from Susan Lane, who had been in touch with Alice Paul. She still tells that story and gives me chills. You'll have to interview her someday. You know who Alice Paul is?
[Susan Lane was one of the executive directors of the Seattle Office for Women's Rights. Alice Paul (1885-1977), a Quaker with a Ph.D. from the University of Pennsylvania, led the militant National Woman's Party and was jailed and force-fed during the crusade for the woman suffrage amendment to the U.S. Constitution. After voters ratified the amendment in 1920, Paul noted that the original suffragists had asked for much more than the right to vote. In 1923, on the 75th anniversary of the Seneca Falls Convention (where Elizabeth Cady Stanton and others had launched the U.S. women's rights crusade), Paul proposed a new constitutional amendment: "Men and women shall have equal rights throughout the United States and every place subject to its jurisdiction." Proposed repeatedly, the national Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) had strong support in the 1940s and was nearly ratified in the 1980s. It is still being proposed in Congress.(ed.)]
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| Andrews |
Of course. And Susan Lane, too, but I didn't know they had met.
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| Sale |
Well, I'll let her tell her story, but I heard that story then. And I knew that the rest of you had been on ERA as the subject before, not you, I guess, but them, the others, before I had. And Susan may have learned it all when she went to DC and met Alice Paul and got into the National Women's Party building and did all of that. Because I must have talked to her, to Susan Lane then. And do you remember that group that you were doing the money stuff with had given up on whether Congress would ever pass out the national Equal Rights Amendment, and decided to go for a state one. And the very year that they started doing that, Congress passed the national one out on March 22, 1972, was it?
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| Brough |
Yeah, well the state--
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| Sale |
Yes, but I came in too late to help with that. I was on the League committee, but I didn't get involved with that. And I think it was really NOW that was behind doing the state Equal Rights Amendment, getting it going. Well, it was very, very close in November. Do you remember? It was three weeks or something.
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| Brough |
Three weeks, yeah.
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| Sale |
Yeah, before we knew whether it was going to pass or not. But it did pass. So that's when, well, that was probably in December when we found that out, and January was the next legislative session. And it was a full legislative session, wasn't it? It was '73.
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| Brough |
It would have been an initial year.
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| Sale |
An initial year in a two-year thing. So at that point, then, with the League committee, and then in NOW, no, it was before we went to NOW. But really, those of us really on the League committee, it was you and me and Jackie Griswold and Linda Miller and Elizabeth Ellisor–
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| Brough |
And Bev.
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| Sale |
And Bev, Beverly Corwin, who was chair of the League committee, actually it was a state study, but it was based in the Seattle League. I think because that's where so many of the people were. But anyway, we had a lot of people, like twenty, twenty-five people on that list. But at any rate, a lot of people. So we were there, and we decided that we would lobby ratification of the national Equal Rights Amendment then. If we just had passed, the people had just passed a state one, you had a lot you could take with you to argue with in the legislature. So we did that. And Jean Marie described doing that. I remember back and forth trips. And I also remembered I was with Jackie a lot. And we would go talk to, I wish I could remember the legislator. Maybe I could get it later. They would ask us questions, and we would come tearing back to Seattle to go to, who was it who worked on it in Bellevue?
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| Brough |
Marilyn Ward would do everything.
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| Sale |
Marilyn Ward, well, whoever it was. But there was somebody else who ended up moving away. And it was Helen [Sommers], for one thing, because she was working.
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| Brough |
She was in the legislature.
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| Sale |
She was in the legislature. I remember going to her office at some point. Well, they would ask us questions, and we would have to come back and get the answers and take it back to the legislature and so on. But we ended up ratifying the ERA exactly a year after it came out. March 22, 1973, a year after it came out of Congress. And then we formed a rap group. We decided, Jackie really decided, that we had learned a lot doing that. And remember, she made sure that we collected all the material that we had used. The handouts.
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| Brough |
She made kits for all the other ratified states. She put everything that we had amassed in the way of fact sheets and good information or how tos.
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| Sale |
What the questions were, and responses to the questions, and all that. And we mailed them to every ERA committee that we got the name of, probably from national NOW.
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| Brough |
We knew which states--
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| Andrews |
How did what happened in Washington compare to other states? Getting all of this done in one year?
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| Brough |
We were about the last one to ratify for umpteen years. We'd only raced the federal plan right out of the gate. And then a year later, well I don't think anybody came after us for a long time.
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| Sale |
For a long time? I ran across some of that when I was looking. Well, the stuff I was looking at last night, I don't remember which states they were, but there were two states that ratified. But I was looking at more Ellensburg time, so it would have been several years later. And then it came down to four, and we never got better than four. But that's a different subject.
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| Andrews |
I'd love to hear more about your rap group.
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| Brough |
Well, the five of us that drove back and forth to Olympia, we were there at least twice a week, some subset of us, because we were all basically at home. Not working at the moment.
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| Sale |
Yeah. Jackie was on leave from teaching.
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| Andrews |
So that was the two of you, and Jackie Griswold, and ...
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| Sale |
Bev Corwin.
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| Brough |
And Elizabeth Ellisor.
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| Sale |
It was a different name then. It was Murphy.
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| Brough |
Murphy, I think, at the time. She's been divorced since then.
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| Sale |
Murray? I think it's Murray.
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| Brough |
Anyway, she works for City Light.
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| Sale |
Yeah. She was the youngest.
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| Brough |
We became really good friends.
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| Sale |
We did. Yes.
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| Brough |
I was driving, and Jackie was musing. Jackie is a muser. She said, "Do you suppose I'm a feminist?" I still remember this conversation. And we said, "What?"
She said, "Well, if you think about this word feminist, then I must be, according to the dictionary definition." You believe in the equality, the social, political, economic.
And she said, "I guess that makes me a feminist." And I said, "Of course it does!"
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| Sale |
I remember looking up feminism in the dictionary and saying, "Well, yes, of course. So I guess I am." We had an age range, too, because Jackie was a year and a half or something, or almost two years older than I.
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| Brough |
Yeah, you and Jackie were the oldest.
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| Sale |
And then Bev was six years younger, and then you're ten years, and Elizabeth is a couple of more years. So it was really very nice, you know.
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| Brough |
And we became very good friends. One of the things we had learned from all those readings was rap groups, and just the trust amongst people. And you could talk about just about anything. And so we met–
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| Sale |
Weekly.
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| Brough |
We met at Friday nights. And we met for years at my house.
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| Sale |
Yes. You had the baby, yeah.
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| Brough |
For dinner and talk.
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| Sale |
Yeah. We brought things, didn't we?
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| Brough |
Yeah. It was a round robin, whoever was hosting it. We took turns. But we know more about each other than I know about anybody else in the universe.
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| Sale |
We helped each other through good and bad times. The bad times, as well as enjoying–
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| Brough |
We don't meet, the rap group, much anymore. But we still do occasionallygo for a weekend up in the islands, or out for dinner or something like that. We've stayed good friends. Bev is in Paris right now.
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| Sale |
Yes, she is...
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| Brough |
But we also, and I can't remember precisely when, started the Women's Political Caucus as one of our little side projects.
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| Sale |
Yes, we did a lot of things like that.
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| Brough |
The League was too stodgy.
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| Andrews |
Was that an outgrowth of NOW? The Women's Political Caucus?
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| Brough |
More an outgrowth of those of us who were frustrated with the League's inability to give a political approach we needed.
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| Sale |
That's why we went to NOW. At least, that's why I went to NOW. I've never dropped my League membership, which is why I can say I've been a member for fifty years. [laughs] And I admire, and I understand, I think we all like League and the way it goes about things and what its history is and so on. But at that point in time, actually, it was funny while we were doing the ERA work, because the League didn't have any ERA position at that point. It was brand new. They were slow.
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| Brough |
They were very supportive of us, but at the same time, very worried about what political things we would do.
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| Sale |
That was locally. Yes. Yes.
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| Brough |
Because we were just doing this thing. We could put whatever label we needed to wear when we got down there. So we could be a NOW member, or a Women's Political Caucus member or a League of Women Voters member.
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| Sale |
Or just a constituent.
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| Brough |
Depending on who we were talking to. And that's when we met Judy Turpin. She lives just down the road.
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| Sale |
Does she? Is she that close to you? She's retired. She became a lobbyist, a professional lobbyist.
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| Brough |
She's one of these people that knew everything, and knew how to do everything, and smart as a whip. She was a mentor for me.
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| Sale |
She's a good person for you to talk to, too. And her basic organization was AAUW [American Association of University Women]. So you get a different, you'll get a somewhat different view that way. She's a good person to have down. This is why I want to do fundraising for more of this [Women's History Consortium's oral history project].
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| Brough |
Somewhere along the line, we started a woman's office here, an office of women's rights. That was right after the ERA. The state office that was headed by Mary Helen Roberts and Gisela, Gisela Taber.
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| Andrews |
The State Women's Council.
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| Sale |
But it's the governor [Governor Daniel Evans] who did it, though. And he did it really early, before we were aware, I think. Lois North can tell you about this. She's former \Senator Lois North. She's ten years older than I am, I think.
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| Brough |
Once Lois gave me advice never to think about running for Congress, because I was a Republican and they would never, ever have a majority in DC.
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| Sale |
Oh! [laughs] She was a Republican. Well, that's funny. That's funny.
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| Brough |
Let's get back to the Washington Women's Political Caucus. We were part of the group that saw a need for it and put it together.
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Brough |
And then we left it in capable hands.
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| Sale |
Yes. And that was partly because of things that the caucus could focus on that–
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| Brough |
Wheel and deal politically.
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| Sale |
Yes, and they were focusing on, would focus on candidates and that kind of thing, which is more than NOW wanted to take on. I can't remember when there was anything against it, but the League wouldn't.. So, and then after the Women's Council was, well, the question about the state Women's Council is another subject altogether, really.
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| Brough |
The Office of Women's Rights in Seattle started the fall after the ERA campaign. I remember you guys all marched on city hall.
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| Sale |
That's right.
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| Brough |
I was home resting from the campaign, and balancing the checkbook.
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| Sale |
I was really involved with that. I don't remember how, but I was at that meeting. Jackie and I had started going to these meetings. And I think NOW was so new, the NOW chapter was so new. It was in the downtown YWCA. It was just a meeting place. And we were concerned about support for the very new Office of Women's Rights. I can't remember what it became, and what it was in the beginning before that, in the city of Seattle. Millie Henry was the head, and then I guess there was one staff person. And it was kind of buried under another, it was a small group inside of a larger group, and didn't get much of a focus.
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| Andrews |
The Seattle Women's Commission?
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| Sale |
Well, that's the appointed group. And the Office of Women's Rights was the part of city government.
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| Brough |
It was a part of the Department of Community Development or something. It was a little subgroup–
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes. And what we did, we did leave that building and march to city hall, where there was a meeting going on. And Shirley Bridge walked down that aisle and interrupted what was going on. And said, with all of us behind her in the aisle, that we had an issue that they needed to hear about from us. And she was wonderful describing it. I've forgotten whether she was on, I think she was on the commission, so she was a commission member. And that started us off.
What we were demanding was that the Office of Women's Rights would become part of the executive branch, and have direct access to the mayor. I think that was it. And this required rewriting the ordinance that created both. And I got involved with Melissa Thompson, another name for you. And oh, there were several other people whose names I now don't remember. Didn't find those pages to look at. And for some time there, I don't remember whether Jackie was doing that or not. But I know I spent a lot of time, I actually rewrote it myself, I think. I don't know whether anyone else thinks so, but I can show you the drafts. [laughs]
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| Brough |
I believe you.
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| Sale |
I don't throw anything out, you know. I must have learned that as a librarian.
|
| Brough |
We were very busy.
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| Sale |
We were terribly busy.
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| Brough |
We had all these projects, but we had mentors. Jeanette Williams was sort of a main one.
|
| Sale |
Yes. Yes.
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| Brough |
And Phyllis Lamphere was also there.
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| Sale |
And they were wonderful. Both of them were members of the Seattle City Council at the time.
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| Brough |
Lee Kraft, was she a judge?
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| Sale |
No. I think she was just an attorney.
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| Brough |
Smart as a whip.
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Brough |
Right around the time of the Ellensburg conference, we had an attorneys' group put together. [Washington Women Lawyers]
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| Sale |
Put together, yes. Because women started being allowed to go to law school. And we knew some of those early ones. And our friend–
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| Brough |
Jane Noland got into law school. At UPS?
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes. And that was early, because I remember her telling me that when she was pregnant in the League committee. And then George, Georgianna–
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| Brough |
Schuder Ellis
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| Sale |
She's now Dr. Ellis.
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| Brough |
Her name was Schuder. But when she finally graduated from medical school and got a divorce, she went back to her mother's maiden name, Ellis. She was a NOW president two years after us?
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| Sale |
The year after, the year after us, she was, yeah. The year I went to England.
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| Andrews |
There was a lot that was accomplished–
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| Sale |
Oh, I tell you, it was going on like crazy.
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| Andrews |
And along with the ERA, what was some of the other legislation?
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| Brough |
Well, the other legislation was the rape legislation.
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| Sale |
We were getting into that, because Jackie was–
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| Brough |
Jackie was focused.
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| Sale |
Jackie was focused on it. And she did not become active in NOW right away, because she got appointed to the Women's Commission, the Seattle Women's Commission. And that's when we started having rape groups together where you shared, speak outs, that's what we called it, wasn't it?
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| Brough |
Well, the rape legislation was, I think, '74? Or maybe '75? Maybe it took two years.
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| Sale |
Yes. She was on there for three years.
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| Brough |
In this period of '72 to '78, all of this stuff just happened, one right after another. The rape legislation was, I think, Jackie was the prime mover on that.
NOW got involved in that, which is one of the reasons they wanted me to do legislative stuff. We were lobbying for rape provision. And who was doing brown bag lunches with the judges? I mean, we were trying to educate everybody.
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| Sale |
Oh, yes. I went to a number of those. I remember meeting with judges in the fancy legal office someplace downtown. And they just couldn't get it. They just didn't get it. And we had to figure out exactly what that meant, and what exactly, and how to proceed. And that went on for some time.
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| Brough |
I would be the person that would put three of them in a room and lock them in and make them write a fact sheet, you know. And so legislators could possibly, you know, ingestsome of it. Because Jackie would overload them with materials.
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Brough |
And my contribution to this was making sure they didn't delay it all, if that would make it work.
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| Sale |
There was one of us that was just right for each purpose, right?
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| Brough |
But that was the big legislation. The other stuff happened relatively easily, I think.
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| Sale |
And things like changing your name and all that was pretty easy.
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| Brough |
Yeah. It was really sticky.
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| Sale |
It was really changing how people think.
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| Brough |
And sort of a spinoff, if you will, (this was an awful use of the word) thatsort of surfaced when we were doing research for rape, was child abuse. It had been one of those things stuck under the carpet, never discussed, ever, in any situation. And the more we delved into rape situations, and what was going on with the courts and stuff, the more this child abuse business was just sort of hitting us in the face continuously. I don't know that we actually passed legislation, but it became a viable issue in the women's movement around that time. Then we went off and fought with NOW for two years.
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| Sale |
What do you mean? Oh, on the national level. Yes.
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| Brough |
The reorganization of NOW took place in '75, '76. I don't honestly know what the major division was. It had something to do with gay rights, but it mostly had something to do with power and socialist, socialism versus mainstream politics and stuff. And the mainstreamers eventually did win, but we had to reorganize NOW to do that. It was not an easy job.
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| Sale |
No. I just read about that last night. The night we stayed up all night making–
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| Brough |
Rewrote the by-laws. The members of the by-laws commission rewrote the by-laws for the national organization to give grassroots some input into how the organization was run.
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| Sale |
There's a lot of information about that. Yeah, we went too, good experience, good experience.
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| Andrews |
Were both of you on the national board for NOW?
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| Sale |
Yes. Not at the same time.
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| Brough |
She followed when I retired there.
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| Sale |
You made me promise I would. Don't you remember?
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| Brough |
No. But there was so much going on. And I missed a lot of this Ellensburg stuff, because I was doing national NOW stuff. And because I was on the by-laws commission and the national board. So I was off trying to work on this other stuff.
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| Sale |
Yeah. Well you remember what I was telling Mildred on the way here, driving here, because I was rereading about it last night. I wanted to try to get it straight in my head. One issue we did was to extend the amount of time that we had to ratify the national Equal Rights Amendment. And about this time, just after Ellensburg, or just at Ellensburg, we were working at doing that. There was a deadline in the original legislation, and we were trying to get Congress to pass an extension of it. And you came home from a national board meeting, and told me that they'd come up with a new way to work with the public, and with phone banks. And it was a new, I mean, we'd all heard of phone banks, but this was a different way to handle phone banks. And you asked me, I think we were both on this, you were national, but I was on the state NOW board then. And you asked me if I'd go to Oregon, and if I'd get in touch with national and figure out what this new method was, and go to Oregon, to Portland, and someplace else,- I went to two places, I remember.-- and teach them how to do this so that they could work on the extension from Oregon, as well.
And when I came back, it was NOW national conference time. And I'm sure you were all involved in that. And I stayed home and put up, started a phone bank in Seattle to work for extension with our people. And I can't remember the name of the friend of mine who's a lawyer who let us use his office downtown at night, where we had eight or nine phones. And that's when I learned all of that. You asked me to tell national that I was available, which I was. But that's another story.
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| Brough |
You were sitting there looking bored one day. You looked like you needed a chore.
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| Sale |
No, you said that you only wanted to run once, and I had to promise–
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| Brough |
When she was talking, I had a couple of thoughts about the kind of help that we got from external sources. You talked about your lawyer friend with the phone bank. And I can't remember who that was. During the state Equal Rights Amendment campaign, Joel Pritchard's campaign was, it seems to me that he had campaigning types of questions that we had given to his campaign staff. When you start talking about phone banks, Washington U. S. Senators Magnusson and Jackson had, Maggie had no opposition for one of–
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| Sale |
Yes. There was one right around there.
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| Brough |
So those people helped us learn how to make phone banks work. So these were not necessarily out in the front line, but they were helpful.
|
| Sale |
And Lois North told us how to lobby for things, too. She's still around. That's so great.
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| Brough |
We learned not to giggle when they said stupid things.
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| Sale |
[laughs] Yes. To keep a straight face, yes.
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| Brough |
When we were lobbying for the ERA, the thing everybody was interested in was whether you shaved your armpits and were wearing dresses. Ridiculous stuff.
Helen got elected to legislature, and she wears slacks. So there was this business about, this feminist business, all these women, these macho women are going to come down here. So we all wore our little skirts and so forth.
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| Sale |
That's right.
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| Brough |
The day the ERA was ratified in Washington state, we have a picture of us on the Capitol steps.
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| Sale |
Which I couldn't find, yes. Yes.
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| Brough |
In short skirts. Because that's what the length of the skirts were.
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes. And you remember–
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| Andrews |
Do you have a copy of that someplace?
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| Sale |
I do. I do. But I didn't have it wherever I was looking last night.
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| Andrews |
That would be wonderful for our website.
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| Sale |
That is very important. And I got all ooh, like this, when I thought last night, I don't know where it is.
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| Brough |
One of us bragged about actually shaving her legs!
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| Sale |
Who said that?
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| Brough |
Rita Shaw.
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| Sale |
Rita. It was just a minute ago, that was the name I was trying to find. I remember, I testified, I don't remember whether it was in the House or the Senate, for the national ERA. And I wore my sexiest dress, and then said I was an elder in the Presbyterian Church and I had two children and I loved my husband, and I wanted to see this pass, please. [laughs] We could do it. We could act.
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| Brough |
We changed procedure a little bit. We, after sending it through the House, the Senate Rules Committee, it was just languishing in the Senate Rules Committee. So we used to just go to the Senate Rules Committee and sit–
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| Sale |
Yes, yes, yes. Sit in the chairs behind them.
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| Brough |
So the big table there was centered. We were seated on the wall around the room, each of us with a focused target. So when this came up for a vote, we could see what our guy was doing. Because the way they told us, we had sufficient number of votes. It just never seemed to come out of committee somehow. And we would stand up when it would get time for the vote to see what questions they were going to make, which upset them. We weren't allowed to disrupt the Rules Committee by standing up. And then the day that it passed, I wasn't there, because I had left because one of them wasn't there. So I found him and got him in there.
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| Sale |
Good for you.
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| Brough |
So, and George Scott–
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes.
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| Brough |
He was wonderful!
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Brough |
George Scott, I don't know who our senator was.
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| Sale |
George Fleming? A black–
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| Brough |
Fleming came in–
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| Sale |
He would have been mine. That was later?
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| Brough |
That was, I think later.
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| Sale |
Hmm.
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| Brough |
It was just crazy and then the next year, the Senate Rules Committee was arranged so that the table was no longer in the center of the room. [laughs]
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| Sale |
[laughs] I didn't know that. Jean Marie, how did you ever put up with being a legislator? [laughs]
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| Brough |
This was later. It never crossed my mind that I would be, either.
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| Sale |
You're looking at your questions. Should we get to Ellensburg?
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| Andrews |
Perhaps we should, right now. Is there anything else that jumps out at you before we get to Ellensburg?
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| Brough |
Well, other than the fact that I was very happy you sent this book [The Story of Ellensburg], because I had not remembered the fact that there was an initiative out there, and that's why we had organized Friends of Equal Rights Amendment. I kept reading my book here, thinking–
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| Sale |
Yeah, I didn't remember that, either. No.
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| Brough |
What's this Friends of Equal Rights? And why was I doing that in '77?
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| Andrews |
That preceded the conference. What was the initiative?
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| Brough |
The initiative was to rescind the state ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment. Had it been on the ballot, we would have faced a tough campaign season. So we put together Friends of Equal Rights, a committee to prevent that. So we were interviewing for staff jobs and salaries and fundraising and bought stationery, that kind of stuff, to organize a campaign.
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| Sale |
Who's "we?"
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| Brough |
Well, why would it have been as late as '77? Maybe the dates are wrong.
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| Sale |
No, I think this whole business, that, as well as Ellensburg, came up while I was in England on sabbatical with my husband. And when I left in September of '76, I had no idea any of this, and nobody told me, either. So when I came home–
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| Brough |
Organizational, Jane Noland. Organizational logo committee, Rita Shaw. Sharon Dillan, coordinator. I don't remember who she is. Mary Lou Pierce Dickerson, for endorsements. Speaker's bureau was Sharon Dillan. Betty Fletcher was a legal advisor with Nancy Miller.
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| Sale |
Betty Fletcher, yeah.
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| Brough |
Nancy Miller. I forgot about her.
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| Sale |
Oh, yeah.
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| Brough |
Nancy Miller had been the president of the League of Women Voters and became an attorney.
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| Andrews |
The Story of Ellensburg lists five people in Friends of Equal Rights who served on a committee that put together a slate of prospective delegates to Houston. And that's Jeanette Williams, and you, Jean Marie, and Michelle [Mickey] Pailthorp. Shelly Roberts, and Beth Zimmerman.
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| Sale |
Well, Mickey is deceased.
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| Brough |
Well, according to The Story of Ellensburg, we were dealing with delegation organizing, and we were doing, not a slate, but we were getting feminists to put out for consideration. So we had like forty-nine, or forty-eight. I mean, it was twenty-four people that got elected. We had a list of twice that that wanted to meet all of the criteria of the age and the ethnicity and the geographic location and the interests and whatever else that was part of the organizers' interviews.
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| Sale |
What I remember was the point at which you realized that you had to have a slate. Because earlier than that, you were trying to get people to go to Ellensburg to become involved and to see what was going on, because it was going to be a very exciting thing, you know.
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| Brough |
This is the page of her notes with my scribbles. My spelling was miserable. Marcy Whitney, Jean Knights, Judith Woods. Gary Grant was assistant to Ed Chow. Woods' father was ill. Pearl McElheron said no. I mean, these were people that we were calling around the state, and asking if they were interested in–
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| Sale |
In going? Or being on the slate?
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| Brough |
It wasn't the slate so much as being a part of it, or having their names nominated for consideration.
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| Sale |
Well, that's very good work.
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| Brough |
Linda Schodt, Joan Singler, Harriet Wasserman, Carol Glickfeld-- office manager for Seattle Mayor Wes Uhlman.
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| Sale |
Yeah.
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| Brough |
These are names that the callers showed responses. Debbie Ventenburg, kept track of a number of campaigns that need supervision. [laughter] Jennifer James, I have there for fundraising. A firm commitment in July from Ann Carlson, Citizens for Fair School Funding. Some others interested were Sarah Stanford, Coleen Patrick, Jean Ameluxen from Vashon Island, who was my roommate in Olympia for seven years. And I was just hoping while I was doing all of this stuff that pro-ERA-ers would be elected.
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| Sale |
I did not know that happened.
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| Brough |
Here's a note in my log. "IWY, a lot of busloads, Missouri, Oklahoma, anti-ERA busloads." And that date is June twenty-ninth.
|
| Sale |
That's very late. We didn't know it. And yet this indicates that there were people telling other states that hadn't. Because we were late, weren't we, with our state, one of the last states? And you would have thought that we would have gotten some information from other states faster. I mean, it would have gotten through NOW or through League, or some national thing that would get it down to–
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| Brough |
Beth Zimmerman was [Women's] Political Caucus, Mickey was, what was Mickey at that point?
|
| Sale |
ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union]?
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| Brough |
Probably. I think she was their staff person.
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| Sale |
I think so. Yeah.
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| Brough |
Mickey, I had hired Mickey to–
|
| Sale |
Michelle, it is.
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| Brough |
Yeah. To be the staff person for the state Equal Rights Amendment campaign. We had a good working relationship. Me being the organizer, she being the networker. But Beth Zimmerman was going to speak out on the ERA at Ellensburg. I have written down, "IWY, no resolutions, just recommendations." Did we do resolutions, or did we not do resolutions?
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| Andrews |
Well, practically everything was voted down. The slate of delegates was elected.
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| Sale |
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think we ever got to any issues.
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| Brough |
Then I have Mickey P, Beth Zimmerman, me. [laughs] This was our assignment. Politics for a slate of all the different caucuses that would be in Ellensburg. Minority, labor, whatever. Not only to get people there and to get them to vote, but to get them to agree.
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| Sale |
Yes. Because we knew we had to–
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| Brough |
We had no idea what we were up against, other than the fact that we knew that we wanted to be prepared for it.
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| Andrews |
How long did it take you to put this slate together?
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| Brough |
Well, this is June twenty-ninth, and when was this thing?
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| Andrews |
And it's Fourth of July weekend, too.
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| Brough |
It was a work in progress. I mean, there was the debate whether [Jill] Ruckelshaus was going to be on it. She'd get to go anyway, so we didn't have to waste the slot for her.
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| Sale |
It's very interesting what it says in here.
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| Brough |
And she was, somebody was gracious and somebody else wasn't about not putting out people who had anticipation and expectation that they would be delegates.
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| Sale |
Yes, 'cause that's the way it was all set up to begin with. And then I was surprised when I saw this last night that when it actually got to the floor, there were people whose names had been put up. And starting with Jill Ruckelshaus, they took them off. They, you know, and so you ended up with a slate which we'd been up all night the night before, getting everybody to agree, which was difficult. But everybody realized that they really had to or everybody was out of it.
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| Brough |
When we got over there and saw that sea of Winnebagos as far as the eye could see, camper trucks.
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Brough |
And all these nice Mormon women, I mean, it was scary, because we thought well, we've lost this battle, because there are so many of them.
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| Andrews |
When did you find out that they were coming?
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| Brough |
We'd been, honestly, I don't think we had any idea of how many–
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| Sale |
No. No.
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| Andrews |
Was your first inkling when you got to Ellensburg?
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| Brough |
Yeah.
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| Sale |
When Jackie and I got to Ellensburg on Friday, we saw this, and we immediately got on the phone and called back to Seattle and said, "You've got to call everybody. Everybody's got to come. I don't care if you turn around and leave, but–"
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| Andrews |
Just to get people there to vote.
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| Sale |
That's right.
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| Brough |
Jeanette [Williams] had a press conference and tried to get on the evening news. We were all excited because she was going to rouse the troops in Seattle, but it wasn't put on the air because of some warehouse fire in Everett. A more important news story. Fires always take precedence.
Mostly what we did on Friday, I don't remember all this hassle for getting registered. So maybe, we went from caucus to caucus to caucus. People were caucusing every night to say this is absolutely essential that we have just twenty-four names. And these are the twenty-four we've come up with, and what do you think? And if you want to scratch Liz Smith off of it and put Judy Brown on it, that's fine, but let me know now, because we want to keep it down to twenty-four. So I think, for the most part, it amazed me that these groups actually did do that.
They were not pleasant to us. I mean, they weren't pleasant to me. [laughs] When you got to a caucus meeting, it was like, you only had six people, who were anti-ERA and explaining the facts of life. But the fact of life was that you had to get through the sea of Winnebagos to get there. So they knew that something was afoot.
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| Sale |
Yeah, I remember just being there, and asking you to tell me to go do something.
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| Brough |
Were you there for me?
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| Sale |
Mm hmm. You and Jackie.
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| Brough |
But we really, really hustled. And because, well, Mickey knew everybody. And I knew a lot of people. I don't know where Beth Zimmerman fit in, but she just, she was calm. And neither Mickey nor I tend to be calm. Mickey in particular. And we did manage to pull it off.
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| Sale |
Mickey could be very loud.
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| Brough |
That helps when you're arguing politics. I'll tell you, Mickey was good!
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| Andrews |
Was there any dialogue?
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| Sale |
Endless dialogue.
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| Andrews |
I mean between the two sides.
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| Sale |
Oh, no. You mean with the Mormon women? No.
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| Brough |
Well, there was some.
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| Sale |
Really?
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| Brough |
In the workshops–
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| Sale |
Oh, in workshops, in workshops, yeah.
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| Brough |
Not in the slate business.
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| Sale |
No.
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| Brough |
They had their slate, and we were trying to get our slate down to just the right number of names.
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| Sale |
Twenty-four, twenty-five, something.
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| Brough |
And it was interesting to me that we actually did that. Marion Moos out of Spokane was concerned about Jill Ruckelshaus. She was a NOW activist.
[Reading from notes in her journals and files] Frances Scott, Blacks Caucus, belonged to NOW with an agenda of teaching all schools strong feminist human rights. Elizabeth First, Native American. Judith Gibbs, Bev Davidson, Strong Feminists Fight Middle Class. Peggy Maze, president of Church Women United. Dolores Gross, pro ERA, black woman.
We were just going to people and saying, "All right, we need somebody in their thirties who is involved with labor who is this and this and that. Cough us up somebody that's pro-ERA."
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| Sale |
We were trying to cover as wide a swath of society as we can.
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| Brough |
And we really did try to cover the attributes that, except that we wanted people who are pro-ERA. And that tension thing because of the lesbian rights and maybe some abortion stuff, too.
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| Sale |
I was just reading this, oh, Jane Noland was chairing the meeting. I didn't know that.
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| Andrews |
Which meeting did she chair?
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| Sale |
She chaired this, see, there were groups meeting from nine to eleven. [reading] "And at eleven, the Friends of Equal Rights meeting of caucus representatives began as planned. Since most of the individual caucuses had not begun their meetings 'til nine or ten, some had not concluded by the time the coalition caucus had began. For the most part, the individual caucuses elected to send their liaisons to the Friends meeting while their own meetings were still in session." And then, "In addition to the thirty-odd caucus liaisons who had originally been invited, there were over 100 other women packing the small meeting room." That's what I remember. "A number of these were unaffiliated with any group, and in the words of one, simply 'wanted to know what was happening.'" So Jane Nolan was chairing. "She explained the necessity of having a unified slate of twenty-four nominees, and read the list that had been complied before by three members of Friends." Who Jean just mentioned, all right. "The meeting was then thrown open to discussion, and very special interest groups expressed their desire. And that includes the lesbian caucus. They had three women who openly admitted–" They were bothered because there was nobody representing open lesbians, lesbians who were not hiding. Okay? "As well as pro-gay statements from all nominees. So healthcare professionals proposed the names of their nominees, as did Jewish women, Asian-Pacific women, and others." And, let's see. "After some discussion–" Let's see. I wanted the summary statement, because the–
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| Brough |
This is me at the time.
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| Sale |
Yeah, go ahead.
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| Andrews |
There's another one, too, after that. What we're looking at right now are some articles from Pandora. I copied quite a few of them at the University of Washington archives. Jean Marie, the article you're looking at says that you had called this one, what was it? One big heart attack?
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| Brough |
One long anxiety attack. I never worked so hard in my life.
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| Andrews |
This is your summation of the conference when you were interviewed after it was over. Do you want to comment on it?
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| Brough |
Well, I was thinking after, I don't know what I can possibly add to the discussion, because I don't remember the details. What we did from moment to moment. I only remember feelings that I had, the emotional impact of this stuff. But there was a lot of pride in the fact that we pulled it off. And we got these divergent people to link behind one slate. I mean, that was, to me, a minor miracle.
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| Sale |
They call it democracy in action, somebody here. It's hard work.
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| Brough |
It was much more than that, because it was really a recognition of the fact that we had more in common than–
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| Sale |
Any of us had thought?
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| Brough |
Even if we didn't agree 100 percent on gay rights, we still believed in the ERA and women's rights. And we had all these other, look at the issues here. We had fifty issues there to discuss. I learned as a legislator, if you talk to five constituents, then they all agree with you, "Yeah, yeah, yeah," don't bring up another issue. Because the next– [laughs] You will disagree with somebody on something. I mean, you just can't put three thousand people together and have them all agree lock step to any issues. The fact that they did that was just amazing. I thought it was wonderful, and it showed, I think, that we can really, really be focused and could do most anything we wanted to.
The other thing that came out was really dismay at the Mormon Church. I don't think I had been anti-Mormon until this time. The fact that those women were scared just, here I am, a suburban housewife, and because I had a scarf around my neck– oh, we have to talk about the scarves, too. We had at NOW conferences to get a scarf that was made of such ugly fabric that it couldn't be reproduced by anybody. You go buy something with eighty-five stripes on it, with remarkable stripes, and you give everybody a scarf, so that, when you recognize the scarf, you know a friend.
They were saying, "Everybody putting on those scarves is a lesbian. Don't get near them." Like it's some disease or something. I mean, that there were people in this day and age, and that was thirty years ago, who were so out of touch with the realities of the broader world. That discouraged me.
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes.
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| Brough |
I mean, we were always fighting for the woman's movement. I'd go down to Olympia. When I was in the legislature, I said, "Hey, look, I dealt with the Socialist Workers' Party in the 1970s. But it's nothing compared to -- see, I was already becoming a politician." [laughter]
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| Sale |
Is this quoting you? Where did you get all those?
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| Andrews |
I found some articles in Pandora.
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| Sale |
Oh, they're Pandora articles, right.
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| Andrews |
Do you want to read your quote there? I thought it was quite good.
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| Brough |
This one?
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| Andrews |
Yes.
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| Brough |
"We, for the first time, we have, for the first time, a communications link between all women in this state who are actively involved with one issue or another. An opportunity for a forum where we can meet each other with understanding and positive communication. What happened at Ellensburg, that wasn't defeat. The opposition is feeling its strength. We see it on abortion, busing and gay rights. But they are not yet coming forth with positive platform for social change."
Hmm. That doesn't sound like me. Well, maybe I really said that. I don't know. Hmm. "As for Ellensburg, we do not yet know whether we had a victory or a defeat." Hmm.
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| Andrews |
We can always delete it if you like.
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| Brough |
No, that's all right. I could have said most anything. I was needing my sleep by the time this conference was over.
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| Andrews |
I can imagine.
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| Brough |
My list of candidates.
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| Sale |
Oh, my. And their vote counts? [Brough shows us her hand-written list of candidates from both the feminist and conservative slates with the vote counts.]
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| Brough |
Oh, yeah.
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| Andrews |
Interesting. And then ultimately, one conservative delegate was elected, Kay Regan. And all the rest were feminists. And all the alternates were conservatives.
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| Sale |
And Kay Regan was on the Seattle Women's Commission with Jackie.
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| Brough |
See, we only had twenty-four people, and they had twenty-four people.
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| Andrews |
So did either of you go to Houston?
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| Brough |
I didn't go, and I was up to my elbows in NOW stuff.
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| Sale |
I didn't go either. I became more and more focused on the Equal Rights Amendment as an issue. I'd done my being the boss and running an organization. I wanted to do something else. So I was looking for a place to be useful at that point. I had been gone for almost a year, and it made a huge difference here.
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| Andrews |
Did you get involved in anything to do with Referendum 40? That was to abolish the state Women's Commission? It was sponsored by conservatives.
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| Sale |
Oh, yeah. Well, we all were, in general.
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| Andrews |
It's right after the convention. The conservatives though, they came up with a referendum to abolish the state Women's Commission.
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| Brough |
I suspect that I wasn't, because I was doing national NOW stuff, but I do know Gisela Taber was the first executive director.
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| Andrews |
And Marianne Kraft Norton was the last one.
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| Sale |
I wrote those things down as I came to them yesterday, and did not bring it.
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| Andrews |
That's all right. We have the story. I was just wondering if either of you wanted to comment on it.
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| Sale |
Well, it was very discouraging. I think particularly to have this woman governor who had never been helpful in any way.
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| Andrews |
Governor Dixy Lee Ray.
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| Sale |
She had never been helpful in any way, didn't seem to get it at all about the issues, the reasons for a woman's movement. She had been a loner, doing her own thing, and being able to handle it and get what she wanted. But she didn't seem to get a sense of the larger community and the situations that other kinds of women are in. One of the things, this was always discouraging to me, was that with the other women, well, I don't like to just say the Mormon women, the non-ERA women, was that they didn't seem to have any empathy for the women in dangerous situations in their lives and their marriages. Or with real trouble, trying to decide what to do when they had children in a bad situation. You know, the people who are living the way the Mormon women wanted them to live, in a family and doing nothing in the larger world, just focusing inside the family, when the family is not functioning. And when the children, as well as the women, are in danger. And they just didn't seem to be, they didn't want to believe it, I think, as much as anything. They kind of blanked it.
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| Brough |
Well, it's that they think, "I'm fairly protected, living in the suburbs and so forth." But the whole world is not touching some of these people.
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes.
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| Brough |
And I don't know if it's that they're one paycheck away, or if it's because they have such a strong community in their church. There is a safety net. But I don't know about the spousal abuse, though. That's got to be awful.
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| Sale |
Yes. And when you were talking about things that were happening early, Shirlie Kaplan was involved and others with the women's shelters, trying to help women get away from, and with the children.
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| Brough |
And Grace Van Horn, who started Rape Relief. There are two programs. One is DAWN – Domestic Abuse Women's Network. And the Maple Leaf was renamed Rape Relief.
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| Sale |
I remember with the rape bill, the rape legislation, when it was changed, the definition of rape and all those things that were changed, they couldn't quite get through the fact that a husband can rape a wife, I mean, as part of the definition at that time. It almost got there, but not quite. Maybe subsequently it has.
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| Brough |
One of the things that I remember the legislature doing some revisions of the rape laws, we were able to go back and pick up some of the statutory rape stuff.
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Brough |
Because we couldn't touch that when we were doing rape law. Like I say, we sort of discovered child sexual abuse as a by-product of our rape studies. And I think Gary Locke [later governor of Washington state] was one of the leaders on the rape law. That was when he was in the legislature.
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| Andrews |
Jean Marie, when was it that you served in the legislature?
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| Brough |
'82 'til '95.
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| Sale |
That was a long time, wasn't it?
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| Brough |
It was a long time.
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| Sale |
You were floor leader, weren't you?
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| Brough |
I was the first woman floor leader, ever, elected by any party in either house. [laughter]
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| Andrews |
You're already talking about my next question, which has to do withthe long term outcomes of issues that were addressed at Ellensburg. And of course, as a legislator, you did quite a lot. Do you want to both talk a little bit more about what you've done to follow up.
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| Sale |
I was just trying to think, what did I do? [laughs] I'm so back there, I'm blanking.
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| Andrews |
Or what you're still doing. In other words, make connections between those conferences and those issues and what's going on since. And what may still be going on.
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| Brough |
Well, what issues? Like I say, I didn't go to any workshops, I don't think. Maybe the ERA speakout.
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| Andrews |
I'm just using the conference kind of as a hook for everything that was going on in the '70s, all that we've been talking about.
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| Sale |
I think Ellensburg was a window on what was happening and what, indeed, did happen. In the national election in 1980, by 1980 we were all realizing that everything was changing. And it's not just the Mormon women. It's what now we're calling evangelical Christians. And I'm currently, in my church, trying to deal with a response, in other words, who am I, who are we, who are not evangelical Christians, but are definitely Christians. And how is this different from everything about them. Because one of the things they did was change their rules. This is the Baptist group, who used to have a rule that they did not take part in partisan politics. And then they changed that at some point. I've forgotten when, in the '80s or '90s. And that led all the evangelical Christians into the political arena, where they had not been before, because it was not part of what they thought they should be doing.
But at any rate, when Ronald Reagan was running the first time, in 1980, Jackie and I got on the ferry to Bainbridge in the afternoon. It was a nice day. There was already some reports from the East Coast, you know. And we went back and forth, and then we came back and got in her car and put on the radio, and it was already over. It was 5:30 or something. And it didn't make any difference what the East Coast, Reagan was already elected. And we just knew that was a shift of the pendulum. In any rate, it was all changing. Yeah. Yeah.
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| Brough |
About face in a lot of ways?
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| Sale |
And now we're beginning to discover who was taking over for what and when. And what's really interesting, which I've never spent any time trying to write down anything about, is which things are, as subjects, have been maintained as issues? Which things, as subjects, in those days, it turned out, were absolutely being absorbed by the society, and now are being taken for granted? There are some things like that. We have two generations, I think, of young women, because every ten years is a generation now. That should be three generations.
But anyway, there is a young local woman who's written The F Book. "F" is feminism. The F Word, it's called.[Rowe-Finkbeiner, Kristin. The F-Word: Feminism in Jeopardy: Women, Politics and the Future. Emeryville, CA: Seal Press, 2004] I. And at one point, it's true, at one point, that word seemed to frighten people. Frighten women. And they didn't really examine what the heck it meant, with any historic background, what had been going on here. And it's still true, several generations later. The younger women, this book is written because this contemporary woman my daughter's age, probably, my daughter's almost fifty. I mean, geez. [laughs] On the other hand, my only grandchild is only five. So she did very well there. She's really forty-eight.
So what did that word mean for them? And why did that hook up to be that? And they associate it with being irrelevant to vote somehow. That they can be active in the community, it doesn't matter if they vote or not. And somebody as bright as the one who wrote it, I mean, everybody ought to have realized in the last few elections how important it is or isn't to vote, and all the problems with our voting machines, and how the process of our voting now, and how important that is, and how that can be made, how bad. It can be taken over and misused by some of those companies that were trying to really do that, I think, with some of those voting machines. At any rate, when I first started hearing people saying, "I want to go back to paper ballots," I knew the word was getting out. But she wants to enliven her generation, and the young women coming earlier, younger than she, because – it's time for the pendulum to swing the other direction.
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| Brough |
You told me about issues that came back up in Olympia, that were issues at Ellensburg. And I look at this list [The Women of Ellensburg, p. 40], comparable worth really jumps out at me. I can still remember this young female attorney, Christine Gregoire (now governor of Washington state), who came into our office, into our Republican caucus, to try to explain comparable worth to my colleagues. It was pretty fun. But the legislature did establish comparable worth in my career as a basis, a factor to be considered when dealing with salary structures.
The issues that I worked on in Olympia that sort of occasionally got me in trouble with the woman's movement, I can still remember. Some people grew very unhappy with mefor dealing with children, and the protection of children, in abusive situations. And to me, it doesn't matter what the mother or father is doing. If the child's at risk, the child needs to be thought of first. Which meant, as far as I'm concerned, even taking the child away from the mother, because the mother couldn't protect the child from the father, until the situation was straightened out. Not a permanent thing. But dealing with abused children was an issue that I'd worked on in Olympia that the woman's movement had not really prepared me for. As convoluted as it was, and with the bureaucracy as entrenched as it was, dealing with entrenched bureaucracy was something we learned to do in the women's movement. So it was just a shift in gears.
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| Sale |
It's still an issue.
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| Brough |
But dealing with, what do you call the payment schedules for child– Give me the words, I'm sorry. Divorce payments and support.
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| Sale |
Oh. Alimony. Child support.
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| Brough |
Child support was an issue on judiciary committee that just never went away. And talk about what a typical whole ornatural family is like, you ought to go to a child support hearing and you'll find out every ramification of family life that you can possibly envision. Mother has children from one marriage, father has children from another marriage. This is the third marriage for one of them and the second for the other. Who owes child support to whom, under what circumstances. And they would miss, the wife number four in the back sobbing because they can't afford more children. And then you kind of wonder what kind of value system is all of this foolishness?
But those were issues that I was very easily able to deal with in Olympia, because of my experience in the woman's movement. Education reform was probably the issue, I worked hardest on. First, I did a whole rewrite of how to incorporate a city. Because I think there are like fifteen cities that have been incorporated since my legislation passed. So I consider myself sort of the mother of all of these new cities. Because there hadn't been an incorporation in the state of Washington because of the process for I don't know how many years, but that was important for this community. Federal Way was the first one incorporated. So I spent four years working on city incorporations, and the process. The change of power from county to city. So it used to happen overnight, and now it doesn't. It's a real long process.
I then switched into the education arena, because to me, public education, I was a public schoolteacher by profession. I was the only legislator that stayed all the way through the education reform stuff on all of the conference committees. Through the bitter end of four years on teachers' strike, and the hostilities, and so forth, to get the education reform through. That was sort of my swan–
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| Sale |
Swan song.
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| Brough |
Swan song, and something that I'm very proud of. But those are issues that, the parenting business of, the abuse of women and children in situations, that the women's movement was just the natural movement to the legislature. And an occasional little environmental tweak. [laughs] I used to complain to Dorothy that all these feminists were environmentalists, that I'd got to get them out of Greenpeace and Sierra Club, and back into NOW. [laughter] But that's really important. I guess they rubbed off on me more than I rubbed off on them.
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| Sale |
Yeah. There was a real division. I remember that happening. From League, particularly. People would choose to go to the women's movement, or the environmental movement. And you couldn't do both; they were both too busy. I mean, and they were going in different directions. And you'd say, "Goodbye. I'm glad you're doing that, because I'm not going to. I'm going to do this." [laughs] And you could say, "Goodbye, I'm not going to do what you're doing, but you do a good job, because I know that will make you–"
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| Brough |
The other issue, of course, was the continuation of the rape provision to deal with young people who rape, too. What would normally become statutory rape.
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| Sale |
Yeah. Say it like it is. I haven't looked at all those issues. That was, but there they are.
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| Andrews |
I think we've just covered the question of if there were specific issues that were of concern during the Ellensburg conference or around that time, how they were resolved, or are they still being debated. I think you just covered quite a bit of that. Is there anything to add?
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| Brough |
Things like gay issues and the whole lesbian rights and lifestyle, I don't know if that, I don't know if it will ever get resolved. Because both sides are pretty entrenched.
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| Sale |
What pages are the issues on?
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| Brough |
This is on forty.
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| Sale |
Forty. Oh, I see. There's education, employment. Well here's a list. Okay.
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| Brough |
And media image of women. [laughs]
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| Sale |
Oh, boy.
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| Brough |
I could barely watch TV, because of these women that weigh about, maybe 98 pounds, wet, and have 38-inch bosoms. They just–
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| Sale |
And 30-inch hips. [laughs]
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| Brough |
They're just stick figures with bosoms. And you know that it's not normal or natural. And yet that seems to be the image that's on TV. Whereas men can be everything. You were talking about Norm being chubby, more chubby than usual. So we obviously haven't done a good job of women in the media.
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| Sale |
They're all killing their feet and their legs and their lower back, also, with those stupid shoes. I mean, somebody ought to take those manufacturers to court and say, "Okay, you can sell those shoes, as long as it goes with a guarantee that you will pay all the medical bills when the result of wearing those shoes is clear."
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| Brough |
So not all, not everything has been resolved yet.
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| Sale |
No. No.
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| Andrews |
That's kind of interesting that you brought that up about fashion. Because really, at the time of the conference, we had accomplished quite a bit.
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| Sale |
Yes, we had.
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| Andrews |
It was very acceptable to wear low-heeled shoes.
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes.
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| Andrews |
You didn't have to stagger around in four-inch heels.
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Andrews |
And now they want it back. They want the four-inch heels back.
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| Sale |
But at least it still does go with people who also have those shoes, but buy their other clothes at REI, you know. And take twenty-mile hikes every weekend.
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| Brough |
And they don't have to wear heels on hikes. [laughs]
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| Sale |
We're all getting older, too, and finding out what price we're paying.
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| Andrews |
I just have one question for Dorothy. And this is kind of a sum up one. You were talking a little bit about how the Civil Rights Movement led into the women's movement.
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| Sale |
Uh huh.
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| Andrews |
For you, it did. And we didn't really talk about that very much, about the connections. Just that you started with civil rights, and then–
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| Sale |
Well, there was a point at which, at least where I lived, in the Central Area, but I think that happened nationally, in a way, when instead of doing things together, the Black Power movement really kind of took away the space that white people could have to be part of the movement. And that certainly happened in the Central Area, I think. I remember that there was some point when CORE [Congress of Racial Equality] didn't welcome white people anymore.
But some of the shift for me was things that happened personally that set me off in a different direction. Not only was there less that I could do, although I was still really active with the church and was on the board for the children's program, I mean, the preschool, and things like that. But I then started becoming interested in hearing in the media and all that about the women's movement. And it was having personal meanings for me, because of things going on. So I started reading. I read Simone de Beauvoir. I read, we already said this, what's her name? Betty Friedan. And who I had not read before. I think something that I read about that must have made me uncomfortable in my marriage.
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| Andrews |
Elizabeth Janeway, too?
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| Sale |
And Elizabeth Janeway, yes, yes. And Red Stockings? Really, you're the only person I know who knows her. Man's World, Woman's Place was a big book for me. I loved her books, Elizabeth Janeway. I have a whole shelf full of the things that I read then. And then the League came up with the women's study, and one thing led to another that we've talked about. There was only a few years in there that this transition kind of took place. My children were then getting into high school, and they were getting older and didn't need me in the same way. But they were used to going to League meetings. So it did segue.
It became personal. It was really important. Instead of working hard for a movement that did not personally affect you, which is what it was like for white people trying to help with black power and black freedom, or whatever, and learning the history of that, which was a big thing for me. Reading nineteenth century history about what happened, and so on. But all of a sudden, the issues that I knew were personally hurtful to black friends and people I knew well, had a comparable thing for me. I discovered issues which were important to me personally, that really affected my life. So that just pushed me in that direction. And that's really the connection, because I learned a lot about things that had been done historically and continued to be to African Americans, and began to realize that it was also happening to other ethnic groups, let alone Native Americans, but Hispanic and Latino Americans, also. So it became more and more personal. And then I really just jumped in. You've just got to do it. Then you start doing it for your daughters.
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| Brough |
You do start doing some of this for your daughters.
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| Sale |
Absolutely. Yeah. And when you have a daughter, and you say, "That's not going to happen to her. We're going to change that for–"
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| Brough |
That was just the general marvelous freedom of living in Seattle after growing up in Alabama. You could do most anything you want. Say whatever you like. Go wherever you want. There's nobody there to report you to anybody. It was fun.
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| Sale |
And when you were on the NOW national board, didn't you hear stories about what things were like in other places, and feel relieved when you came home to Seattle?
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| Brough |
Well, having lived a lot of places, I noticed when we moved up here on a five-year plan. [laughter]
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| Sale |
Yeah. Well, I certainly did. When I was traveling – that's another subject for another time – when I was traveling for national NOW, going to unratified states and things like that, every time I came, every time I saw the mountains, I just heaved a sigh and felt so glad to be back here. I mean, this environment, this, Seattle is a great place. So's Washington. So's the West Coast, as far as that goes. Anyway, I spent a lot of time later working in other parts of the NOW region, which was six states, including Alaska, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho and Oregon, as well as Washington. That's a big chunk of real estate. [laughs] And very different kinds of patterns of life and belief and so on there. It was in Wyoming that feminist young woman said yes, they needed rifles on the back of their pickups when they were driving alone. The only people who ever convinced me that they would have a reason to have a gun in your person, personal– [laughs]
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| Andrews |
Just one more question. From your perspectives, how have women's lives changed since the conferences? And in what ways have they stayed the same?
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| Sale |
[laughs] That's a humongous subject.
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| Andrews |
You don't need to cover all that. But is there something that comes to mind?
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| Sale |
Well, there are a lot more women's sports, and the community seems to have accepted that with pleasure, people who like sports events.
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| Brough |
More professional opportunities.
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| Sale |
There are more women doctors, there are more women lawyers, which I find a real plus. What else? Our girls feel they can do a lot more.
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| Brough |
My girl feels, when she runs into something, that it's amazing. A roadblock, "What's this?" Just a roadblock.
My daughter is now lobbying the legislature.
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| Sale |
She is?
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| Brough |
The House of Delegates in Maryland, where she is. It's quite a good job. She calls me and asks, "What am I supposed to do about these bills? Would you read these bills, Mom, and explain them to me?"
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| Sale |
Who does she work for?
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| Brough |
She works for a Medicaid clinic, dealing with federal regulations and state regulations on Medicaid.
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| Sale |
Oh, that's complicated.
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| Brough |
Much too complicated for me. I think that the thing that I got out of the women's movement that helped me is the fact that we can deal with umpteen jillion different issues. Because in the legislature, every five minutes it's a different issue, because somebody else is in there to lobby you about something. And you have to shift gears and try to prioritize. I used to tell the WA people when they came in, "Well, here's our ten items." And I said, "I don't want to talk about ten items. You give me one, maybe two, that you think I should be focused on, and let's talk about those." I can't deal with ten items.
I think lives of women, well, lives in society, are totally different now. This is pre-technology, pre-computer, pre-cell phone, pre-TVs in every room of the house. I think that the context that we laid, the personal touching that we did in the Women's Movement, I haven't seen anything like that since – those kinds of friendships.
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| Sale |
Yeah.
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| Brough |
Sort of meeting of the mind and working together and putting aside the differences to focus on the big picture. I don't see that in modern life much anymore.
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| Sale |
Don't see it encouraged, no. Or it happen.
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| Brough |
I think it has to do with the isolation of people because of technology. That bothers me a bit. I can sit at my computer for days on end.
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| Sale |
On the other hand, with email, I'm more in touch with some people than I ever was. I used to be an only on the phone person. Now I can do a little of my only wanting to talk on the phone by–
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| Brough |
Yeah, I can do emails, so long as I can spell check. [laughter]
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| Sale |
We should email each other, just to say hello. You know, you can do that.
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| Andrews |
Well, is there anything more that either of you would like to say?
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| Sale |
My brain is so far in the past at the moment that I can't remember what I'm doing in the present tense. That's a problem with going at things this way. [laughs]
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| Brough |
This sounds like Dorothy, who is an activist at heart, and needs to be doing more of that. I could have told you more, if my water heater hadn't sprung a leak and seeped through the floor and into the cardboard boxes, where I had all my NOW stuff stored. I had four big boxes for you. But–
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| Sale |
But you do have some things.
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| Brough |
Well, I still think at some point I'm going to write something about this.
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| Sale |
Oh, good for you.
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| Brough |
Whether it's a detective story, or a feminist legislator killing somebody else, or some other plot.
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| Sale |
That would be great, Jean Marie.
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| Brough |
Somebody that's already done it. I've often thought about, you know, what I could do with the vast experiences that we've had over the years. Just this conversation has brought a lot of them back.
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| Sale |
Yes.
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| Brough |
I would have said I didn't remember anything about Ellensburg. I really don't, other than the sea of Winnebagos and the emotions.
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| Andrews |
The significance–
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| Sale |
Well, that's really what happened. Being on the [Women's History] Consortium is just really a big thing for me, bringing it back. Feeling I can have a goal, at any rate, at getting some of it saved. Both by talking and by the paperwork that we have.
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| Brough |
We rap group members had a dream.
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| Sale |
We did. I know what you're going to say.
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| Brough |
That we would, after our husbands and other people abandoned us, the five of us would get a big house with five bedrooms, and one big front porch with five rocking chairs. And we would sit out there, and young women would come by and talk to us about what it was like in the Woman's Movement.
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes. Yes.
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| Andrews |
You do need to write a novel or a play. [laughter]
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| Brough |
Unfortunately, there are only four of us now.
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| Andrews |
You could still do that.
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| Brough |
That would be a good stage.
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| Sale |
Yes. Yes.
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| Andrews |
Well, thank you both so much. This will be a tremendous resource for future researchers. And I've enjoyed it.
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| Brough |
Thank you.
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| Sale |
Thank you. I've enjoyed it, too.
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[End Interview.]
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